Faith Hope and Sport
Drew Gibson and guests help you think through how a passion for sport can live alongside a passionate faith.
Faith Hope and Sport
Faith for the Long Run
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Gladys Ganiel combines academic achievement with sporting excellence. She’s a long distance runner who has competed right up to Commonwealth and European Games standard. In conversation with Drew Gibson, Gladys brings us important, thoughtful and challenging insights into sport faith and life in Northern Ireland… and beyond.
Welcome to Faith, Hope, and Sport, the podcast that thinks more deeply about sport from a faith perspective. As some of you might guess, I stole the name of the podcast from the New Testament and approved it. St. Paul wrote about faith, hope, and love. Of course, he should have written Faith, Hope, and Sport. My name's Drew Gibson, and I hope you'll enjoy thinking more deeply about faith and sport. Today I have with me in the studio Professor Gladys Ganiel from Queen's University Belfast. Gladys is a well-respected teacher in Queens, and she's written a number of insightful books about life in the province. But much more important than that, she's a serious and successful long-distance runner. Gladys has run in the Commonwealth Games and the European Games, and she's been the first woman home in the Belfast City Marathon. Gladys, your accent betrays that you weren't born in Northern Ireland. Tell us a bit about yourself, your family, and where you're originally from.
SPEAKER_07I was born in Maine in the United States. That's on the East Coast and it borders Canada. And I suppose it's important that I grew up in a really small town, about 800 people, sort of a fishing village. That sort of thing. So a very small town with a strong work ethic, work culture around, I suppose, physical labor, really, in some ways. My family, I had two older sisters growing up, and we would have been brought to a Baptist church. That would have been the predominant religious culture in the village, would have been quite evangelical, actually, an independent Baptist churches, Methodist churches, sort of low church evangelical style religion, as it were. So I would have grown up um in that um sort of environment as well.
SPEAKER_05Aaron Ross Powell So would you say you grew up in a formally religious family or in an authentically religious family?
SPEAKER_07Well, you're not going to draw me too much on that one. No, and I mean there's in terms of like low church evangelicalism, there's nothing formal about it. Well, I mean that's no, that's not exactly right. Because it was quite traditional. I mean, it wasn't charismatic or anything like that. So we had the old hymns, you know, the old classics. So I guess formal in that way, but very informal in terms of the way you would have interacted, I suppose, with the pastor and his wife, who was my Sunday school teacher, and that sort of thing. And I'm sure the Sunday school teachers were your aunts and cousins and all that as well. So sort of a even a family type atmosphere in that sense, you know.
SPEAKER_05So how then did a girl from Maine in the United States get to Northern Ireland? Is there a story behind that?
SPEAKER_07Oh, there's always a story. So I mean it's it's actually quite a story related to sport. So growing up, I enjoyed physical activity. Like I said, I raked the blueberries in the summertime, which is a pretty hard, physically demanding job. I absolutely love that. But the culture was very sports-oriented in my hometown as well. So basketball was the big sport. And I played basketball. I'm not very tall, but I played the point guard position. I was pretty good at basketball, which was good. But in order to get better for basketball, I started running for the cross-country team. So in high school, we do four years of high school. So the year before I was meant to enter high school, I started training with the high school cross-country team because I wanted to get fitter for basketball. So the high school coach at the time allowed me to do that and sort of accidentally discovered I was quite good at running. And quickly became apparent that I was much better at running than I was at basketball. So after the four years of high school in the United States, you can get these scholarships, athletic scholarships, that basically enabled me, who came from a family that didn't have a lot of material means, enabled me to go to a top-class liberal arts university on an athletic scholarship. So I went to Providence College in Rhode Island, and that would have been a Catholic liberal arts school. And there's a process. When you're a high school athlete, you're recruited by the coaches, you know, and the coach there was Ray Tracy. Now, people who know Irish athletics may know that's the brother of John Tracy, who won the silver medal in the LA Olympics in the marathon. And Ray had been coached there for years and years, and I liked his pitch the best, I suppose. Um so I went to run at Providence. And Ray, being from Ireland, would have recruited a lot of the top Irish athletes to go and run at Providence. And to this day, Ray is still the coach and still recruits some of the top Irish athletes to run there. But that meant when I got to Providence, a lot of my friends and people on the running team were from Ireland. Um so I got interested in Ireland that way. And um I majored in political science, and as my dissertation project before my final year at university, I wrote a dissertation on a religion in conflict on the island of Ireland. Um, basically, that combined many of my interests, the interest in Ireland, and the interest in religion. Whenever then came the time I thought I would want to go to graduate school, I decided to come to Ireland for that. So I went to UCD and did a master's there, and then continued on and did a PhD that focused um specifically on evangelicalism in Northern Ireland. I went to UCD primarily to work with Jennifer Todd, who was was one of the world-leading experts on Northern Ireland. Really, she's retired now, but um it was great privilege to work with her. And then I got my first job lecturing uh at the Irish School of Acumetics, the Belfast campus. So Irish School of Acumetics is part of Trinity College Dublin, but there's a small Belfast campus. I worked there about nine years then before I moved over to Queens.
SPEAKER_05And your position at Queens now, what's your title? Well, the official title Impress is Professor in the Sociology of Religion.
SPEAKER_07Wow.
SPEAKER_05And do you have particular research interests now?
SPEAKER_07Aaron Ross Powell Well, I mean I suppose I have maintained that interest in religion, conflict, and peace building, particularly in Northern Ireland. At various points I would have dabbled, I suppose. I did some research in South African Zimbabwe early in my career, but I haven't been back there. So the focus has been a lot on Northern Ireland, but I've also done the general sociology of religion stuff as well, looking at religious trends, and particularly for the island of Ireland, that means looking at secularization and whether or to what extent pockets of religious vitality remain and what that means and differences in the ways people practice their religion nowadays as the institutional churches crumble around us.
SPEAKER_05Although I I hear whispers that younger people are now looking a bit more to churches than a previous generation would. Does that sound right, or is that just a little bit of fluff?
SPEAKER_07Aaron Ross Powell So you're talking about the quiet revival reports.
SPEAKER_05That's right.
SPEAKER_07Yeah. So that was done by the Bible Society in the UK and England basically. So I believe they did get, I think, a Ugov to do it for them. That's right. So Ugov's a reputable company and they have done it over several years and asked the same questions. And as far as I remember from looking at the report, what that shows is that I suppose the under 24s in England are showing a bit of a a rebound or an interest in religion. But with some caveats. So it's like the Church of England, they're not interested. Right? Some of the independent churches, more interest. And then also Catholic Church and ethnic minorities. So to a certain extent it's that's an interest, but there are loads of caveats with it. And that research in Ireland does not show that. So that seems to be a very specific thing that has turned on in that report. And in particular, since the pandemic, if you look at any sort of poll that's been done in terms of religious identification or practice, the younger people aren't showing even these little bits of interest that you that you may see beginning to surface in England, as it were. I mean, it's not been like totally disastrous since COVID, but it's been noticeable, and I would say a few signs of decline, or at least amongst young people, not a a rebound anyway. Yes.
SPEAKER_05It's been a long trend. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's move away from that particular topic for a second and come back to your sporting interests. You mentioned earlier about a bit of basketball, but mainly running. So tell us about your involvement in sport now.
SPEAKER_07I did my four years at Providence, enjoyed running love running, and never really stopped, you know. I had I suppose I had a few years after university where I had some injuries and stuff and wasn't able to like compete in the way I would have liked. But pretty much whenever I finished my PhD, got the job in Northern Ireland, I got stuck in with a running club and kind of built myself back up after having a a few years where doing the PhD and being injured, I didn't um compete. But I got myself back back to a reasonably high level so that you know I was able to challenge for say an Olympic slot, which I didn't get in 2012 or 2016, though I was very close, 2016 alternate. Um and also I ran in the Commonwealth Games for Northern Ireland and the Europeans for Ireland in the marathon um and in the half marathon as well. So I got myself back to it by an elite level, not like an elite level that's gonna win medals or something, but an elite level that you can qualify for that type of.
SPEAKER_05Oh, I think that's that's an authentically elite level, isn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. What would you look on as your highest achievement in sport so far?
SPEAKER_07So far. There's only I'm 48, so there's not there's only one direction that this goes now. But um I think you know, running in the Commonwealth Games was probably the pinnacle. For that I would have had to run a qualifying time. I think the qualifying time was like 240. Back then, this was in the era before the super shoes. I ran under 240, and the Commonwealth Games were in Glasgow. So really that's probably as close as you're gonna get to a home Commonwealth Games for Northern Ireland. So that was really nice because a lot of people from here went over and watched the race, and you got a lot of support. And I came 12th in that, which is a good result. I mean, the Commonwealth Games is not the highest level international competition, but it's still decent. It's nothing to be sneezed at.
SPEAKER_05Absolutely.
SPEAKER_07And all that was just a good experience. Commonwealth Games is a multi-sport championship, not just athletics. So it was nice to have that environment as well. And sort of the support you got at the time from the Sports Institute in Northern Ireland and Athletics and I was really good. I got to go out and have the strength and conditioning, the physio, all that. So you were kind of had the experience of being a semi-professional athlete for a wee while as well. I mean, I was still working full-time. I enjoyed that, that environment, the high performance environment. I I liked that.
SPEAKER_05So you've been involved in academics for quite a while, you've been involved in sport for quite a while. Let me ask you a little bit more about your faith. You talked about growing up in a Baptist context. So have you maintained the faith or have you left that behind?
SPEAKER_07Aaron Ross Powell I've maintained my faith. At the minute I go to Fitzroy in Belfast, which is a Presbyterian church. Occasionally I'll call myself a Presbyterian depends on who I'm talking to. There's still something of the the Baptist in me though. I can't get away from that. But yes, faith continues to be an important part of my life. And I mean in some ways my academic career as a social scientist, you're not working for the churches or something like that, but it does drive my interest and my curiosity about how religion functions, how the churches work here, particularly in Northern Ireland. So I would continue to practice. And also faith provides a nice structure for life. I mean, I suppose that's one thing about being an athlete as well. If you can structure your training and structure your day, it's a great uh help to you. And in terms of faith providing structure, like a time to pray or a time to reflect, whatever, there's a lot of similarities. I think the structure is quite helpful and useful and calming, if that makes sense, you know. Um and I suppose one of the things about like sport and faith, you sort of have asked about that a wee bit. Now, the culture in which I grew up, I think I alluded to earlier, a real high premium was put on hard work. You know, it was almost that puritanical thing. So some of the Puritan settlers that would have gone to the United States. This isn't always healthy, I will admit, but do you know the idea that working hard is a way that you demonstrate God's presence in your life? Work can be considered like an act of worship to God as well. So that to me was part of the religious culture. For in terms of sport, it was always emphasized, well, you have to work hard at your sport, and to me, that all intertwined, if that makes sense. So you're coming from a culture, both its religious elements and then it's kind of general cultural elements where hard work is really emphasized, and that is a part of your faith. And you also have a responsibility to use your gifts. And if you're not working hard, you're squandering them, right? So I'm I'm sure that was very helpful for me in terms of developing as an athlete, that type of thinking that it's important to work hard. It's something that it's your responsibility to do, it's your gift, so that you should be applying yourself. And that's not to say you never have fun or you don't relax or anything like that, but that's part of what it is to be human is to work and to enjoy the work. I mean, I do like working.
SPEAKER_05Oh, you're probably unique in that, aren't you? No, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_07No, I I think a lot more people like working than they they like to admit.
SPEAKER_05Well, Dan, c could I ask you about something specific? As a distance runner, you must have come across and I assume experienced the idea of flow and going into a state where you think, eh, I could run forever.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_05Some people have talked of that as a spiritual experience. Do you think it is or not?
SPEAKER_07To me, it is probably the same thing as contemplative or meditative prayer. Um, and I do feel that way. Because what that flow state is, basically, is being totally present in the moment. So there's a couple marathons I've run where I was in that state, and the marathon passes like that, like blink of an eye. You know, you're out there for two hours and forty minutes or or whatever, and it does not feel like it takes that long because you are so totally present. And that's really what I think contemplative prayer is total presence and openness to God. Now, in the flow state as an athlete, you're maybe not thinking about God, but you probably are experiencing God in some way. I mean, I think I am, and uh obviously not every athlete feels that way, but I do to to a certain extent. And so to me the parallel is pretty obvious.
SPEAKER_05You've been talking about similarities between sport and faith in things like hard work and in flow. Have you noticed any tensions between your sport and your faith at all?
SPEAKER_07Well, I mean, I suppose the obvious thing is that sometimes you have to miss worship because there's a sporting event, right? And well, what do you do, really? I think Eric Little resolved that problem for us. Well, I mean that's maybe being a bit glib about it, but I mean you just have to compromise once in a while, right? I mean, obviously the big thing few years ago was when the Belfast Marathon moved from a Monday to a Sunday. And I mean the Belfast Marathon was unique, really, in a lot of ways, all those years. And I think it reflected our religious culture. People were reluctant to have such a big sporting event on a Sunday, particularly as it might disrupt people getting to worship. But to me, that's one day of the year, right? And it's also a day that a lot of Christians are out raising money for charity with their relay teams or running the full marathon. It's sort of like taking the corn or whatever on the Sabbath and eating it. There are I don't know, loopholes the wrong word, but there's room for interpretation about that sort of thing. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, certainly from my point of view, there's a difference between an occasional event and a regular event. And I know increasingly it's the regular Sunday training, for example, that causes people a lot of difficulties. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_07Yeah, I mean I'm I'm fortunate in my sport that it doesn't really happen that often. But I know for people with kids who are playing football or whatever on a Sunday morning, it is more of an issue, you know, and then choices have to be made.
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SPEAKER_05This is Faith, Hope and Sport. And I'm talking to academic and marathon runner Laris Ganiel. Well, let's think for a while then, maybe from a more professional point of view, of the relationship between sport and life in the province. Have you done any significant work on the relationship, say, between sport and conflict or sport and peace building?
SPEAKER_07No, that is not my area. And I can tell you a few people who have. So David Mitchell has written on this, Kate Liston, uh David Hassan. So if people want to go and look up their work, they can see a wee bit about that. I could speak about it a little bit. Some of the obvious things to point out are that sport is divided along sectarian lines in some cases, right? So people of certain ethno-religious backgrounds are more likely to play certain sports. But there are some sports that are more cross-community. I mean, athletics is one. If you're gonna say this, why haven't you done it? But nobody has really studied athletics as a cross-community reconciliation peacebuilding sport, although it's been there for decades, is something of that nature. But there has been work done on some of the sports that aren't aligned with either ethno or religious group and how they can promote peacebuilding. Um and also there are those grassroots initiatives like the Peace Players, the Game of Three Haves, these sort of things that work with children and so forth and use sports as a means to build relationship. Sport for kids, it is a great way for people to make new friends, et cetera, et cetera. And any way that that can be done across those traditional community divides is great.
SPEAKER_05Let me then bring you to something that I think is closer to what you've been working on, and that's the relationship between church and peace and conflict and peace building or conflict resolution. Could you tell us a little bit about what you found?
SPEAKER_07Right.
SPEAKER_05And we don't have an infinite amount of time.
SPEAKER_07So that's a very big question. I suppose to start with that. Okay, so it's not just myself that's researched in this area. So a lot of what I say will draw on work like John Brewer has done. People that want to look up and read or do research or whatever, he's also a good person to look at for this. So one of the obvious things is people are always like, you know, well, is it a religious conflict? Is it not a religious conflict, etc., etc.? Um, the important thing to say is that it's not a religious conflict in terms of a holy war or a fight over doctrines or something like that. But as a social scientist, what you do is you look at the way that religion functions in the real world. And certainly over centuries, religion has functioned in such a way that it has helped reproduce division and tension and reinforced and contributed to sectarian structures that have kept people apart. And then religious discourses have been used by churches and religious leaders to justify their positions, whether that's a position of domination or a position of resistance or whatever. So religion is totally implicated in the violence, even if it's not the main cause of the violence. It's part of the wider picture. And so a lot of the work on religion and peace building in Northern Ireland then looks at how religious actors, whether it's churches as institutions or individuals, so John Brewer calls them mavericks, right? So these people on the fringes of the church, the way they have tried to critique their own traditions, point out how those traditions have contributed to violence, and then offer alternative ways that those religious traditions could contribute to peace. So in my PhD, I actually focused quite a bit on that group Evangelical Contribution on Northern Ireland or Conai, specifically how people within that organization would have critiqued an evangelical tradition that was informed by distortions of Calvinism and put forward an alternative evangelical identity that was not for God in Ulster, but was to use their revamped slogan for God in his glory alone. Religious peace building has to, I suppose, critique the tradition and offer an alternative. So that's a big, big part of it. Some of my other work would also have looked at so the Role like clergy, religious leaders. So a few years ago, I was involved in doing a project with the Presbyterian Church that resulted in a book called Considering Grace. Say some of that previous work by John Brewer would have focused on the mavericks, you know, the people who were involved in peacebuilding. But one of the things that really struck me coming out of the research for considering grace was sort of the clergy on the ground who may have been having to deal with people in their congregations being killed or injured and traumatized all throughout the troubles. They maybe weren't involved in that kind of active cross-community peacebuilding work, but they were sort of first responders, as we would call it. They might have been called out to go with the policeman to the home after somebody had been killed. And then they were the primary caregiver, really, for the grieving families after a tragedy. And sometimes that work continued for years and years. And to me, that was also part of peacebuilding and healing and helping people to process and deal with trauma. And that's not really been recognized, I don't think, as a contribution that religious actors made to moving things on and helping people to cope with the trauma, the troubles, and so forth. Yeah, I'll stop there that you asked me another question.
SPEAKER_05I think I'm seeing a bit of a parallel here between church and conflict and sport and conflict. And the parallel to me seems to be that both church and sport can either contribute in a positive way or in a negative way. And that it's all about the individuals and the groups who are involved in both making some sort of decision, maybe a definite, definitive decision, or maybe an implicit decision that they're going to go in one direction or the other. Does that sound fair?
SPEAKER_07I think that sounds fair. And I think it's quite interesting to emphasize the decision aspect. Because sometimes it can be just quite easy to go along with things as they are. People don't want to rock the boat or whatever, but making an active decision to do something a bit differently is quite important. One of the other projects I did was I wrote a biography of Father Jerry Reynolds. So he would have been a priest at Conard Monastery for several decades throughout the Troubles. And that was one of the things that came through to me in terms of writing that book. It's just doing the next small step, the next right thing, and making a decision to do that. And even if at the time it doesn't seem like a big deal cumulatively, it all adds up to those little decisions.
SPEAKER_05Yes, and I think the importance of individuals, whether you use the term mavericks or not, can't be understated. And those individuals can have an influence way beyond what they might think and what what others might think. I've recently come across the term peace-building biosmosis. Does that sound like a reasonable term to use, potentially in Northern Ireland?
SPEAKER_07Aaron Ross Powell That's one of the things that drives social scientists crazy, right? Because it's really hard to quantify that. You can't measure it when you can't put a number on it. But you can sort of describe it qualitatively. And it is a bit woolly and fluffy, but I think valid.
SPEAKER_05Goddess, you've mentioned a number of important books that you've written. Now important is is my term because I believe no, no, I I believe they have been important. Is there anything interesting in the pipeline that you want to share with us? Or perhaps what's your most recent book that uh you might want to tell us about?
SPEAKER_07Well, I'm actually nearly finished up writing a short book about the churches and peacebuilding in Northern Ireland during the troubles. So that means a long book is about 80,000 words, a short book is about 25,000 words. So it's something that's easily digestible, but it will basically look at most of the main literature that's been written about religion, conflict, peacebuilding in Northern Ireland since the troubles began, really, and provide a summary of that and try to draw out some of the key points. So I'll look at evangelicalism in particular, uh the controversial role of Ian Paisley, how groups like Aconi challenge that, that would be a key part of that. Then it will also profile some of the major peacebuilding organizations like Aconi, the Irish School of Ecumenic, and Cory Mela would be some of the most important ones, and ones that have been studied by other scholars as well. So not just me, but other people who come in from outside or wherever often look at the work of those groups. Northern Ireland has also been quite um distinctive in an international context. We do have, believe it or not, highly developed discourses about forgiveness and reconciliation, definitions about what these terms are. Are they a process, a goal? What does it mean to forgive? What does reconciliation look like? Nobody actually agrees on this, but there is a highly developed discourse, right? Even might want to call it a public theology that has been laid out by, you know, Cormiela, Irish School of Ecumenics, people like Johnston McMaster, Ruth Patterson, Padre Gotuma, Kathy Higgins, those are some of our key public theologians that you may or may not have heard of or engaged with their work. I'll be profiling some of their work as well in that book. And then also looking at the failure to mainstream the peacebuilding work within the wider churches. So that to me has been one of the, I guess, well, disappointments, probably not too strong a word. The decades of really good work that Christians have put in in terms of trying to make a contribution to peacebuilding has remained a minority sport, to use that term. Has not really been mainstreamed adequately within the main denominations. So what you kind of had after the Good Friday Agreement was the largest denominations got grants from outside to do the Church of Ireland had the Hard Gospel Project, Presbyterian Church had the Gospel in Conflict Project. Methodists had the Edge Hill Initiative that went on for longer. So there were these projects that were supported with outside funding to try to mainstream peacebuilding into the churches, but they only last two or three years. And then the churches decided not to continue them. To me, that's a missed opportunity to try to engage in a process of formation of the membership where people see peacebuilding as integral to the vocation of being a Christian in Northern Ireland. So it will also bring up this idea of the failure to mainstream and what that means and explore a wee bit as well in terms of how religion, how the churches might continue or try to contribute to dealing with the legacy of the past. That's our great unresolved issue here. And is there anything distinctive that the churches have to say about that or could do? So that's the type of thing that will be in that little book that hopefully be out next year.
SPEAKER_05I think I detect a gap there, Gladys. From what you said, there's not a lot on sport and peacebuilding. And I wonder if there is actually a gap there that needs to be filled because, as you know, various sports organizations have been involved in various projects, and there are various ways I would suggest in which sport has actually been positive in terms of peace building. We all know the negatives. But there have been some that have been really quite positive. And I think there have been a few mavericks in the sports in the sports scene that are well worth thinking about. Even if you think of somebody like Barry McGuigan and the quiet contribution, if you like, that he made, or the symbolic contribution that he made, or Trevor Ringland in the work that he did. So maybe there's a bit of a gap there.
SPEAKER_07Well, I mentioned earlier some of the people who have worked in that area, so I don't want to do a disservice to what they've done. But from an athletics point of view, I think every child should be taught about Mary Peters. The thing that really impresses me about Mary Peters, apart from winning the Olympic gold medal, she was not born here, but she chose to stay here at the height of the troubles and train and stick with her coach and not immigrate to Australia with the rest of her family. I mean, that says a lot. That says a lot about her dedication to this place and everything she did after she came back to Northern Ireland in terms of her contributions to athletics. It should be taught about her in school. I mean, it's absolutely outstanding. And even whenever she came back after winning the gold medal and she was warned that the IRA might disrupt her victory parade, she was like, so what? I'm having having my victory parade. That's that kind of stubbornness to stay here in the first place. I mean, that's what really impresses me. She could have gone anyway. Obviously, one of the best athletes in the world, and she still chose to stay here during the troubles.
SPEAKER_05I've enjoyed it enormously and benefited from it. Thank you so much for giving your time.
SPEAKER_07Thank you.
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