Faith Hope and Sport
Drew Gibson and guests help you think through how a passion for sport can live alongside a passionate faith.
Faith Hope and Sport
Sport in the Old Testament
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Who did Moses support? Liverpool or Man Utd?
How much do you think there is about sport in the Old Testament? Apart from awful old jokes like the one about Joseph serving in the court of Pharaoh? (Sorry!) Host, Drew Gibson concludes it’s hard to think of anything at all. However, his guest, Old Testament expert, Desi Alexander, explains that the Old Testament does have things to say that both players and fans of sport really ought to be listening to.
Welcome to Faith, Hope, and Sport, the podcast that hopes you'll take about half an hour to think about faith and sport. Well, actually, this episode might be much shorter than that. I'm chatting with Dr. Desi Alexander, an Old Testament expert with a worldwide reputation, who ought to know if there's anything, well, anything at all, about sport in the Old Testament. Let's hear what Desi has to say. Desi, you're very welcome to the podcast. Drew, it's a pleasure to be with you. Your speciality is Old Testament, which you've been teaching for quite a while, but we'd like to get to know you a bit better as a person. So could you tell us something about your background?
SPEAKER_05Drew, I grew up on a farm uh just to the north of Ballomina. I suppose my early life was shaped very much by the fact that I had two younger brothers, so we were pretty competitive as a family. Tragically, my father died when I was six. My mother was left with three sons to look after, and I was the eldest, and a farm. So that had a big impact, I suppose, on my early life. And then I ended up going to Balomina Academy. I enjoyed playing rugby there, and we were very competitive as three boys, actually, in the family in terms of sport and the like. And then in a very unexpected way, I ended up going on to university and doing a degree in Semitic studies of all things.
SPEAKER_03Now, for those of our listeners who may not know what exactly is Semitic Studies.
SPEAKER_05Well, Semitic Studies, in terms of what I did, it was largely studying Hebrew and also then studying the Old Testament, which was written in Hebrew. And so for altogether four years I did Hebrew at Queen's in Semitic Studies. The path after that was again unexpected, never something I had planned to do, but I had the opportunity to stay on to do a PhD. And when I got to the end of the third year of that, not having quite finished the thesis, the uh head of department in Semitic Studies went on study leave, and I ended up being appointed to kind of fill his shoes for a year. And uh that one-year appointment ended up eventually becoming a permanent post for all kinds of reasons that I'll not go into. And uh I ended up teaching Semitic Studies for 19 years at Queens.
SPEAKER_03And you you mentioned teaching at Queens, but you've had a a bigger influence than that, Desi, beyond Queens and beyond the province. You've published a number of books, isn't that correct?
SPEAKER_05Yes, I've been in a sense very privileged because uh it's not everybody that gets paid to actually study the Bible. That's a great idea. Study the Old Testament. And very early on in my career I got asked to write uh initially quite short things. I I did a small commentary on the book of Jonah, but that in some ways mushroomed, and other opportunities came along to write other books and be involved in some editing projects. Yeah, it's taken off from there. I never saw myself as a writer, but uh God has a strange way at times of shaping our lives and taking us in directions that we don't expect.
SPEAKER_03Indeed, that's absolutely right. I know you're humble about this, Desi, but I think it's no exaggeration to say that you do have a worldwide reputation.
SPEAKER_05Um Let's leave it there, Trick. We'll leave it there, Sharia. Yeah, we'll not not go down that particular path.
SPEAKER_03You mentioned playing rugby at school. Has sport been any part of your life since leaving school?
SPEAKER_05Strangely enough, I was fanatical about rugby at school. But when I started Queens, I actually for a couple of years didn't play any more rugby. And uh then my younger brother started playing for Ballomania and drew me into playing there for a couple of years, never on the senior team as such, and then I switched actually to playing for Queens for a few years, again, usually on the seconds, never on the first. Uh I was quite happy to play, but didn't really have the time to take it too seriously, and probably didn't have the ability to be that good.
SPEAKER_03Sounds a bit like my own story to us.
SPEAKER_05My my wife keeps reminding me every time she meets uh an old friend who played rugby with me at school, and later at Queens, I had a reputation, and this guy always refers to me as the blonde assassin. I I I kind of uh I enjoyed the physical side of rugby, let me say.
SPEAKER_03That sounds like another line that we shouldn't explore today. But I think not. I think not. In more recent years, you've been doing some running. Is that correct? Now is that competitive running or no, no, no.
SPEAKER_05It's very much recreational. With work, I was sitting at a desk most of the time, and I needed something to exercise my body, and going for a half-hour run, 40 minutes or so, was uh an easy way to get some exercise and yet not take up lots and lots of time. And so I enjoyed that. We lived quite close to Stormont, so I would do a run that took me through the grounds of Stormont, the Cumber Walkways there now, and I used to run along it as well.
SPEAKER_03You say used to, so that implies that you've left running behind. Do you do anything these days?
SPEAKER_05I think sporting content. I've switched to swimming, and my wife was uh concerned that uh when I came in from a run, I I was uh perhaps not looking in the best of shape. Uh it took a lot out of me. And so uh yeah, when I hit my mid-sixties, I I decided uh swimming might be a safer option.
SPEAKER_03Fair enough. Well, can you tell us, Desi, something about faith in your life?
SPEAKER_05Uh yes, Drew. Faith has been so important in my life. It's shaped it from my mid-teens or so. It's been, I suppose, the reason that I ended up in the career that I ended up in. But more than that, it has shaped everything I do, the person that I am, the values that I hold. It gives me a reason for living. And so faith is exceptionally important, and at the heart of that faith is obviously a trust, a belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. So that's really what has shaped my life. And obviously, with studying the scriptures in considerable depth, that has a profound influence, I suppose, in terms of making me sense that the faith I have isn't something shallow. I've had the opportunity to explore the scriptures in depth and to discover for myself how trustworthy they are and how they all come together in a significant way that points me to Christ as my Lord and Saviour.
SPEAKER_03Deszi, I'd love to explore that whole line a lot farther. But we're here with a particular purpose, and that's to think about sport. Now, as I look at the Old Testament, I don't immediately see much in there that has anything to do with sport. Is that a fair comment?
SPEAKER_05A very fair comment. Uh I kind of was surprised when you thought of asking me to come along in terms of uh drawing something out from the Old Testament about sport, because uh in the ancient world uh I doubt if folks had really much time for the kind of organized sport or activities that we're accustomed to today. So, yeah, there's not really anything that I can think of directly that you can pull out and suggest has to do with sport. You you may have other thoughts in this one.
SPEAKER_03Well, I suppose I could say that I tried to play with the old testament a wee bit and to look at various references and see if they might have something to do with sport. I suppose in the back of my mind I was a bit suspicious that I was going a bit too far. But here, let me throw them out to you anyway, and and you can tell me where I'm going wrong. Genesis 32. We have Jacob wrestling with God. Now, in that he wrestles with someone who's simply described as as a man. But of course his opponent is more than just a man and therefore is holding himself in reserve. He's not using his full power as he wrestles with Jacob through the night. That sounds a wee bit sporting to me.
SPEAKER_05There might be an element of sport in it, but but I think it's actually a much more serious encounter in terms of Jacob and shaping his life. The story of Jacob's really interesting because he's someone who quite early on, I think, has a sense of the importance of the promises that God had given to Abraham that were to be passed on in his family. And uh, you may recall the incident where his older twin brother Esau comes in and is hungry, and uh Jacob persuades him to sell his birthright for a bowl of stew, and this is a kind of reflection of how Jacob saw something that he wanted to have, this birthright that would make him the recipient of the divine promises. And so, quite early on, you sense that he's yearning after something, but he hasn't quite grasped how to get it, and his story is very much one of going on a long journey, you might say, searching for something, and he actually ends up leaving the promised land, going away, and then returning years later, and it's on his return that he has this significant encounter with God, and uh he is grasping or holding on to God in order that God might bless him because he wants to know the blessing of God in his life, and he hasn't had that yet. God has, in a sense, has nurtured him, has kind of led him on a journey, but as far as Jacob's concerned, that hasn't happened, and this is the point at which his name is changed from Jacob to Israel, and that change of name in some way indicates, you might say, a conversion experience. He becomes a new person, and it's immediately followed actually by a very interesting encounter between Jacob and his estranged brother Esau. Esau had actually wanted to kill Jacob earlier in the story, and Jacob had fled because of that, and now you have this coming together of the two brothers, and uh it's quite a remarkable story of reconciliation, but it's reconciliation that comes after this transforming event that Jacob has experienced. Wrestling is part of it, but it's not, in a sense, a competition, it's there for a very significant purpose in terms of wrestling, holding on to God in the hope of being blessed. Okay. Let me give you another one.
SPEAKER_03In 1 Samuel 20, we have the story of, or part of the ongoing story, of David and Jonathan. And Jonathan goes into a field, fires an arrow, and then tells his servant that the arrow lies beyond where he is, and so on. So it seems to me that uh Jonathan is there practicing a bit of archery.
SPEAKER_05Yes, and probably doing so in order to be part of the, you might say, the military. A few chapters later, Jonathan is going to actually be killed in a battle. And so probably in terms of those who were young men who perceived themselves as going into conflict, they undoubtedly would have done some kind of training. And I'm not sure whether that falls into the category of of sport.
SPEAKER_03Well, certainly historically, there is this connection between sport and and the military and military training.
SPEAKER_05Yes. Well, there you are. Well, I'll take that as half on one point. You've got you've got a point there.
SPEAKER_03Psalm forty seven verse ten we read, His pleasure is not in the strength of the horse, nor his delight in the legs of the warrior. I think strictly that should read in the legs of a man or in a man's legs. Now that seems to be God doesn't take particular pleasure in horse racing or in running races, but in something else.
SPEAKER_05Yes, and I think that's probably the way to look at things, yes, because there's a sense in which God is reluctant, I think, to focus on perhaps things that are superficial. So someone's ability as a sports person, which might be applauded by other people, is not necessarily something that God would be interested in. He's more interested in the heart of a person, in the the attitudes that someone has, rather than you might say, in their human achievements. I had a smile recently. Donald Trump commented that if he was able to bring about peace between Russia and Ukraine, that that will be his ticket into heaven. And yet when one comes to look at the scriptures and think about how does one make it to heaven, it's never on human merit that we achieve this. We look to Jesus Christ to be the one who opens the door for us. And so you don't have to be a success, you don't have to be the best in the world in order to find God's favour. And so there is a sense in which scriptures will constantly bring this out that God will bring down the proud but raise up the humble. And so the heart is more important than what we can do physically in terms of sporting achievement.
SPEAKER_03Super. Just one more, and I find this a very dark example, of course. 2 Samuel 2 14. Abner and Joab are leading their armies and they're about to fight. But the suggestion is made, let the young men arise and compete before us. And Joab said, Let them arise. And so there's a fight that turns out to be a fight to the death. But the introduction to that sounds like less of a gladiatorial combat. And as you know, gladiatorial combats were seen as sport. Yes. At least by the Greeks and Romans. Yes.
SPEAKER_05I doubt if this was seen as sport. I think there was something much more serious going on here. Not too far before that, you have the interesting story of David and Goliath, and again, that's like a gladiatorial contest, but it just doesn't seem as if it's a fair contest when you think of the two people involved. I'm not sure that that falls into the category of sport as such, but I think in sport we often like to hope maybe that the underdog will come out victorious. There's something in the human nature that I think resonates with that idea.
SPEAKER_03You're listening to Faith, Hope, and Sport. Let's take a quick break.
SPEAKER_02Azariah and Abigail have a big problem. What's wrong? Abigail.
SPEAKER_00Oh, Azariah, it was awful.
SPEAKER_01What?
SPEAKER_00The women. Some of them were at the well when I went earlier. Oh, Azariah, why do they despise me so? The names they called me, I've never done any of them any harm.
SPEAKER_01I've a good mind to go out and give a few of them a piece of my mind.
SPEAKER_00Oh, Azariah, I love you so, but that wouldn't do any good. They'd only turn on you two.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, the outcome of our talk later was that she was going to go to the well at a time when no one else did, in the middle of the day. It was very hot then, but at least she'd be left in peace.
SPEAKER_02But there's a stranger at the well, and their lives are changed forever. Commission presents The Samaritan. You can hear this series and many others. Just search for Commission Radio Drama wherever you get your podcasts.
SPEAKER_04Hello, Will Leach here to remind you about my podcast, The Commission Files. Great faith stories and interviews with the Christian people making a difference in society. And we like a bit of music too. All produced by Commission Christian Radio. Find us wherever you look for podcasts. Just search for the Commission Files.
SPEAKER_03You're listening to Faith, Hope, and Sport. And I'm talking to Dr. Desi Alexander, an expert in the Old Testament, about what the Old Testament might have to say about sport. Okay, Desi, if we accept that there's essentially nothing about sport directly in the Old Testament, I wonder how we can find anything to help us. And so here's an idea that I'd like to throw out to you. The verb that we use when we talk of sport is the verb to play. We play sport. If sport is a sort of playing, can we find any examples of playing in the Old Testament? I think there might be a few. Certainly the word is used in English, although I'm not quite sure what the word in Hebrew behind it is. For example, in that 2nd Samuel section, the verb compete I think is the word that's normally used for play or is often translated as play. In Proverbs, we have is the man who deceives his neighbour and says, I'm only joking. Again, that's that same verb. In Job, the hills bring in their produce and all the wild animals play nearby. Again that same verb. So is there something about the verb that lies behind those words that might give us a bit of help?
SPEAKER_05It's interesting how language can change, and I'm not sure that the Hebrew verb that's being used there is going to be very helpful for us when it comes to thinking about sport. It's interesting that if you go back to the authorized version of the Bible, the word sport appears in it, but it's never with the you might say the modern sense of the word. So we might talk about someone sporting a new coat. Yes. But that use of sport doesn't have anything to do with playing. Yes. As such.
SPEAKER_03And we can use the word play. Anyway, it has nothing to do with actual playing.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_03As well. Yep.
SPEAKER_05So one of the things we have to be very careful about is the fact that English translations can sometimes pick up on a word and use it. And the context may actually help us recognize that, say, the use of the word play has to do with say children playing in the street, and that's perhaps quite an appropriate interpretation or translation of what that Hebrew text is saying. But there may be occasions when translators will use a word and they could have used other words. So for example, I suspect that in some English translations, whenever Isaac is with his wife Rebecca, there's a Hebrew verb that gets used there that sometimes has the implication of play, but it's being playful with her, and you could be playful with your wife, but not necessarily playing sport.
SPEAKER_03That's a very fair comment, I would say. You mentioned a verse there, Desier, or you uh leads to think of about a verse that I think maybe Zechariah 8, which says the city streets will be filled with boys and girls playing there. Could you tell us a little bit more about that? Because that seems to be pointing to a future situation rather than something in the present. Okay.
SPEAKER_05The prophet is picking up in this particular passage about the transformation of Jerusalem. And running through the scriptures, there is a theme that has to do with the creation of the city of God. And it's a theme that draws attention to the idea that God's presence on earth with his people will result in a community where there is peace and prosperity. Peace in the Old Testament context is the word shalom. And shalom isn't just simply about no conflict, peace in that sense, but it's about wholeness of life. It's about enjoying life as God intended it to be. And so this image of the children playing in the street is one of various images that you find that draw attention to the idea of a harmonious, peaceful community where all is as it should be.
SPEAKER_03Yes, that certainly sounds wonderful. To me, as we look forward, it challenges the idea in some people's minds that heaven is a bland place, that heaven is sitting on clouds, that sort of nonsense. Can I take that thinking just a little bit farther? If Zachariah and the prophets are pointing forward to the glorious relationship that we have with God when heaven and earth become the same place, if you like, it's interesting that this picture is of children playing. And that I think is a beautiful thing. If I can link that back to contemporary sport, for me one of the great tragedies of contemporary sport at all levels is that the element of play has been taken out of it. It's become so serious. So that even down to primary school level, children are being coached and pushed and made to be winners or want to be winners, rather than simply to enjoy playing by kicking a ball about or whatever it might be. So I'm inclined to say there's something in here that I would want to take out uh into the realm of sport. Well, you're quite right, of course it doesn't deal with sport entirely, but it can go into that realm.
SPEAKER_05I think there is, Drew, in that sport today is often very competitive, and the emphasis is upon winning rather than just simply participating. And and I think that's something that if the Old Testament has a voice into where sport is today, it would be in terms of saying something along the lines of it's good for people to be involved, it's good for there to be a degree of competition, but at the end of the day, what we need to do is actually acknowledge the importance of the other person. Yes. Even if our team loses, we ought to, in some way, applaud the winners. Because in that sense, we're acknowledging that it's not the actual winning that's all important that might give us a sense of pride and one-upmanship. I think scripture speaks out against that, and there's a sense in which you find that God tends to, I think, be on the side of the underdog, and uh that's an essential part of the biblical story that God comes to the humble rather than the proud.
SPEAKER_03So there's a really interesting challenge there, Desi, I think, to how sport is engaged in in many parts of contemporary society. Another thing that seems to me to be prominent in the Old Testament, especially in the prophets, that can relate, I think, quite easily to sport is the idea of justice and social justice. I've heard a number of times recently about uh the likes of the Olympic Games or the World Championships in athletics and doping, and how there's even now a set of games where the use of steroids and so on is allowed. And I've heard people talking about the injustice of using doping methods and other things. It's always struck me that there's a certain injustice as well, simply because athletes from nations that are poor, that don't have the resources, are competing against athletes from nations that have huge resources. And in many sports it's the athletes with huge resources that will always win. But curiously, in some places that's not true. For example, the Kenyan athletes in the recent World Championships ended up second in the league table behind the Americans and all of the European nations and so on were were far behind. But coming back to this idea of social justice, cheating is almost endemic in contemporary sport. Is it fair to say that the Old Testament would have something to say about justice, fairness, righteousness even?
SPEAKER_05I think so, Drew, yes. There's a sense in which when you begin to analyze different concepts in the Old Testament, you discover that underlying them is uh the concept of integrity, wholeness, avoiding falsehood, you might say transparency, openness, and yet uh cheating, whatever nature it takes, is often about covering up, concealing, looking to get one over on someone else in a way that's inappropriate. And so I think very much at the heart of God, who is the holy one, holiness is about wholeness, about integrity, about being who you are without there being any form of deception. And so cheating would be abhorrent to God because it undermines this whole principle of not looking to conceal, but being open.
SPEAKER_03I think it's also fair to say that cheating that happens within sport and the evil, if I can just use that word, the evil things that happen within sport would attract divine condemnation and condemnation from all right-thinking people, I would say. We've been thinking about cheating that goes on within sport and how God would condemn that. The Christian Church from its early days was quite hostile to sport as it was engaged in in the Roman world. Sometimes not because of sport itself, running, jumping, throwing, but because of how sport was perverted into gladiatorial combat, for example. And also the things that went alongside sport, such as gambling, sexual immorality, and drunkenness. So it's something that could be fair enough in itself, good in itself, could be perverted in one way or another. Does that have any resonance with the Old Testament?
SPEAKER_05I think it does. There's a sense in which when you begin to analyze the things that often God condemns, they aren't necessarily in themselves things that are you might describe as being terrible, evil, wicked. Sometimes it can be very simple things. So for example, the Bible would encourage someone to harvest at the appropriate time to store up for when things are going to be needed. But if you end up hoarding and not being prepared to sell when other people are in need and support and help them, then that will be something sinful. So often you find that in actual fact things that are good can very easily be corrupted. So you might speak in terms of loving someone, but if you lust after them, that's something wrong. Or you might speak in terms of caring for someone, showing compassion, but if that becomes control, then it's wrong. So often the Bible is picking up on the fact that human nature being what it is, it has a tendency to pervert, to twist what's good and turn it into something that's evil.
SPEAKER_03One more thing to think about, Desi, and that's the idea of rest. As I look at Genesis, I see God creating the world, creating humankind, and as part of his creation of humankind, there is built into what we are this rhythm between work and rest. Now we can leave professional sport to one side because that is a form of work, and fair enough. But I sometimes feel that sport as it's carried on today loses this element of rest that ought to be part of it. What I'm thinking about is that if sport is to be restful in some way, then it's to be, if you like, putting back what the rigours of the working world take away, and also if it's to be restful, in some sense or other, it's pointing forward to the ultimate rest that lies in the future. Look at contemporary sport, doesn't seem to do either of those for too many people. Any thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_05Yes, rest is an exceptionally important concept, and in the Old Testament context it's often associated with the idea of Sabbath, and the term Sabbath actually has the sense of ceasing from ceasing from work. That's the important thing about it. And it's highlighted really in the context of the Israelites having been slaves in Egypt, and God comes to deliver them and rescue them, and Sabbath was then a celebration of this deliverance that God brought. And I suppose recreation, recreation, rest, in some way ought to try and reflect this idea that in our world we struggle at times because of the pressure of work and the like, but we also need to find opportunities to rest, break from that, so that we can, in a sense, be renewed and refreshed. But that process of renewal and refreshment ought to, in some way, draw us towards God. We ought to see that ultimately He is the one who can provide us with ultimate rest and refreshment. And if we struggle to find that in ourselves, as often perhaps sport becomes a substitute, maybe, for worship and the like. If that becomes the case, then I'm not sure that that kind of sport is actually going to provide us with the satisfaction that we're looking for. There's a sense which for some people sport can become almost like their God. And we need to avoid that. We need to see that it's not going to provide the fulfillment, the sense of purpose that someone looks for.
SPEAKER_03Desi, thank you so much for coming along today and sharing your thoughts with us. It's been really super. Thank you very much indeed.
SPEAKER_05Thank you, Drew, for having me along.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for listening to Faith, Hope, and Sport. Why not subscribe if you haven't done so already? We record in the studios of Commission Radio. If you'd like to know more about Commission, or if you'd like to become involved by supporting us prayerfully or financially, or if you think you might have something to offer to actually making programs, you can find us on Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. Or of course, just ask nice Mr. Google, or go to the Edge, or go on Safari, or whoever, to find CommissionRadio.org. I look forward to being with you again soon when we'll be going into the New Testament with Professor Gordon Campbell.
